Racers Edge Forums

brenx · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 9:23 am Post subject: Engine freshen up

Well guys I'm a tad stumped. I've got a few things in mind that I need advice/opinions on. Due to $ and engine condition the strokers just not happening. If this engine held on for 6-12mths it would have been nice. Short story is it needs to be refreshed ASAP but I really cant afford to do even that right now. I'm a little disappointed it only did 30,000k's before it started to smoke quite badly.

The basics :

351 cleveland 11.5:1 comp
351 crank, 351 rods
Forged pistons
218cc CHI 3V heads (2.150in/1.65ex)
CHI manifold
830dp annular carb
4.11 gears
5200-5500rpm histall
Powerglide (keep this in mind as it means no narrow power banded cams)

Current camshaft is 248@50 580/606thou lift. Power's off @ 6500rpm. By the book its power starts @ 3800rpm and finishes @ 7000rpm.

Do I?

a) as above with a 242@50 cam with similar lift to an F246? I've seen engine dyno data. It makes 550hp with less compression than mine and 460ftlbs torque but again at only 6500rpm. I personally think it's too similar to my current cam.
b)as above with a larger camshaft

I'd like to run a 10 something or get as close to a 10 as possible. My current cam will go a low 11 with the engine in better condition but I'm bored with this cam.

What's happening?

a) bearings
b) rings
c) hone
d) new camshaft?

I'd like to see power to 7000rpm. Maybe starting @ 4000-4500rpm but I'm not 100% sure.

I'm getting some drag shocks shortly just so I can run the car one more time before the engine comes out. I really want to see what this current combo is capable of.

I just hoping the block/pistons etc etc are still in usable condition as I can't afford to start a brand new bottomend for probably 1-2 years.

My main concerns which I won't know till a machine shop has the block. Is the block itself. Nothing worse than budgeting a couple of hundred to get a bill of a couple of thousand. I can't afford for that to happen.
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11.11@121.92mph (XB Fairmont sedan, street car)

xdclevo · Posted: Sun Aug 28, 2005 11:04 am Post subject:

I think a cam with 242 duration and 570 lift won't get close to 10.9 or 11.2, unless you lose lots of weight. I will be doing the same shotly, but am getting something close to 252/252 duration, and 605/605 lift. I too can't decide whether to keep the 3.5 stroke, or move on. Its just another bank loan away for me. hahaha. My goal is still only mid 11's, and can't see a stroker needed for this.
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12.47 @ 111.38 MPH 1/4's
Lots more to come:)

brenx · Posted: Fri Sep 23, 2005 4:59 pm Post subject:

This build is scratched from the list Wink

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11.11@121.92mph (XB Fairmont sedan, street car)

Dr Moe · Posted: Sat Sep 24, 2005 12:12 am Post subject:

Hey Brendon, i finally got enough time to answer your questions mate. First of all whoever tells you to destroke a 302 is holding his Tool with both hands.Unless you have a bunch of money to waste and Pro Stock parts you are wasting your time.An Xb falcon needs cubes to run hard as it is a heavy car.Your heads are ok as long as you use the right combo. We use 3.5 inch stroke and 6.125 rods to run 191 MPH in an XA coupe on the salt lake.Sure a lot of people think they can do this and that but the bullshit stops when the flag drops.I say run your crank and get your block sonic checked $80 and we can help you here.You say you can put your engine together??? That,s fine but for an extra $440 you can have insurance that all your hard earned cash doesn,t get flushed down the toilet first 5000 kms. In the last 20 years i have seen poor guys get ripped off and torn a new ASS###e and it gives our industry a bad name.My theory is the KISS principle. keep it simple stupid. Why destroke and fool around when you have a good factory combo with 3.5 inch and 4.0 inch bore??? Chevy,s Mopar Ford and all muscle car engineers designed this and spent billions of dollars and headaches until some wombat in a backyard comes up with a great brainstorm idea that is going to set the world on fire.Sorry to be harsh but i do laugh a lot listening to this magic stuff. You sound like you know what you are doing so my advice to you is keep it simple.With your CHI heads you can run 11.4.1 comp cos they get rid of heat in the combustion chamber quick. The camshaft is simple stick with aussie stuff cos yanks do not give a shit about clevelands. Windsors yes not clevos. Get the heads flow tested $75.00 and make your cam work with the heads , if they are awesome at .400 lift utilise it and keep it open at .400 with an inverted lobe solid.If you can afford it install 6 inch conrods or longer so you don,t F##K your rings with crap rod to bore angle. Stick to one builder and listen to one guy as everyone achieves a good result their way. I am happy to help you when i can ...... Very Happy

have fun .............cheers Brian
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21 years experience in PRO Racing engines

brenx · Posted: Sun Sep 25, 2005 1:34 pm Post subject:

The guy with the destroking idea has built prostock engines. He's currently in the process of building a rail car. He's owned a couple. Destroking sounds good but wear and tear would be ridiculous. I'd almost be pulling it down after every meet. He's the same bloke who co-built Australia's fastest 308 which was owned by Andrew at Hallam Performance many years ago. He disappeared as he went to the US to get involved there.

Doing a 351 for my car is pointless. Cars too heavy. Not enough torque and the costs to do a 351 were miles to high in comparison to doing a stroker. My 393 stroker kit will be here tomorrow. That'll sort my lowend torque issue. Hopefully I should complete the 393 build in 4 weeks but other people are involved so it may take a little longer. Heads need to go back to CHI for some work. Hopefully I should be ready for the Ford Nationals @ Heathcote in Nov.

My biggest issue was I wanted 10's but the poor old 351 just had to be strangled way to hard to get there. A dodgy engine builder didn't help the process either.
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11.11@121.92mph (XB Fairmont sedan, street car)

zeronine · New Comer Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 22

Dr. Moe:

I totally agree with what you say. The std 3.5" by 4.000" combination is a great one & it works. True too about plenty of rip-offs as well. As far as the Yanks are concerned, the Cleveland IS dead - they only had the Cleveland available over there for about 2 years: not a hell of a long time is it?

The yanks will work with you, but its a bit of a battle to get them on your side first!!

Brenx:

I am even more happy that you are going 393 cubes instead of 351 now. It is all about cubes especially with heavy cars: you need torque..... As Dr. Moe says, a decent rod like a 6" is important, & even more important in a longer stroke application.

You can run the 11.4 comp no worries, but going 3.85 stroke could change that. The camshaft requirements WILL change because of the cubic inch change... to optimise the bigger engine, it will want you to go bigger on the cam.

I am currently helping out another guy with a 393 combo @ the moment, & on paper, it does look good!

Good luck with it all,

Baz. (0417-214-425)

zeronine · New Comer Joined: 18 Aug 2005 Posts: 22

Brenx,

Just read another post of yours: I would definitely go a solid roller cam if you want to make some power... it does cost more, but hey: that's the price of speed.

If you have any questions, talk to Dr. Moe or I would be happy to help you out with roller cam info/stuff.

Thanks,

Baz (0417-214-425)